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{{autonomous|Meeting_IRC_log}}
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<pre>
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--- Log opened Sun Mar 16 13:05:09 2008
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13:05 -!- mako [i=mako@bork.hampshire.edu] has joined #netservices
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13:05 -!- Irssi: #netservices: Total of 2 nicks [1 ops, 0 halfops, 0 voices, 1 normal]
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13:05 -!- Irssi: Join to #netservices was synced in 1 secs
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13:05 < mako> arhola
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13:05 < mako> AaronSw: hola
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13:05 <@AaronSw> hi
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13:05 < mako> the fsf board meeting is wrapping up
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13:05 < mako> and the in person group is like 20m away and waiting for the word from me
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13:05 <@AaronSw> ok
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13:13 < mako> sobby/gobby server on epoxy.media.mit.edu
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13:30 -!- mako changed the topic of #netservices to: wiki: http://wiki.mako.cc/Network_services | gobby: epoxy.media.mit.edu:6522
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13:34 <@AaronSw> let me know when the call starts
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13:40 < mako> people are on their way
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13:40 < mako> 5-10 minutes, i suspect
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13:57 -!- bcs [n=brett@fsf/staff/bcs] has joined #netservices
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13:58 -!- bkuhn [n=bkuhn@sflc/staff/conservancy.president.bkuhn] has joined #netservices
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13:58 < bkuhn> Hi.
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13:58 <@AaronSw> +Aaron
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13:59 -!- henrypool1 [n=henrypoo@terminus-est.gnu.org] has joined #netservices
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14:00 <@AaronSw> I muted myself to hide the hum.
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14:00 -!- vasile [n=vasile@terminus-est.gnu.org] has joined #netservices
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14:01 < bcs> AaronSw: Oh, okay, thanks.
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14:01 -!- mlinksva_ [n=cc@terminus-est.gnu.org] has joined #netservices
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14:02 -!- mlinksva_ is now known as help
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14:03 -!- help [n=cc@terminus-est.gnu.org] has quit Client Quit
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14:04 -!- mlinksva_ [n=cc@terminus-est.gnu.org] has joined #netservices
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14:05 -!- luisv [n=louie@terminus-est.gnu.org] has joined #netservices
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14:05 <@AaronSw> calling in: Aaron, Kragen, Bradley
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14:05 < bkuhn> AaronSw: I believe so, yes.
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14:07 < bcs> So, what do I do after I apt-get install gobby?
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14:07  * bkuhn wonders the same as Brett.
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14:08 < luisv> run 'gobby'
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14:09 < luisv> and hit the second icon
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14:10 < bcs> Oh, whoops, I fail at apt-get.  :P
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14:10 < bcs> Thanks.
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14:10 < bkuhn> I think I'm in there.
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14:11  * AaronSw wishes he had a network service version of gobby
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14:12 < luisv> AaronSw: web service, you mean?
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14:12 <@AaronSw> not necessarily; I'm trying X11-protocol now
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14:13 <@AaronSw> in person: Brett, Mike, Henri, Mako, Luis, Gabriel, James
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14:16 < mako> AaronSw: heh
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14:16 < luisv> grr
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14:16 < mako> seems likeyou made it
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14:16 <@AaronSw> yay for x11 forwarding, i suppose
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14:19 < luisv> (are ethics ever easier?)
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14:40 < luisv> does mako's wiki have a table format?
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14:46 < mako> luisv: yes, definitely
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14:46 -!- mode/#netservices [+o mako] by AaronSw
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14:46 <@mako> luisv: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Help:Table
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14:52 <@AaronSw> http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
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14:53 -!- jwyg [n=jwyg@78.147.96.102] has joined #netservices
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14:53 < jwyg> Hi all!
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14:53 < jwyg> Its Jonathan Gray from the OKF.
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14:53 <@mako> jwyg: oh hey there!
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14:53 <@mako> jwyg: can you call in?
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14:53 <@AaronSw> Hi.
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14:54 < jwyg> I am just about to now - I hope.
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14:55 <@mako> we have shared utopian visions and done introductions and are currently taking the long road through a list of examples
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14:55 <@mako> although we're currently sort of distracted
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14:56 < jwyg> ok - great!
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14:56 < jwyg> I just spoke to Rufus - who unfortunately can't make it due to heavy academic workload...
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14:57 -!- gabaug [n=gabe@terminus-est.gnu.org] has joined #netservices
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14:58 < bkuhn> mako: OTOH, I think you are right to back to list of examples.
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14:58 < bkuhn> ... because I think the better thing would be to figure out what the "concerns" are with existing services.
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14:58 < bkuhn> I really think the best outcome of this process is actually specific critiques and concerns about existing services are a good thing.
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15:04 <@mako> bkuhn: great, we'll go back to it in a minute
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15:16 <@AaronSw> http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User:Kragen/Edited_pages&action=history
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15:19 < luisv> bad news: my flight is delayed by two hours; good news: that means I can make dinner, at least partially
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15:19 < bcs> Did someone here call in?
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15:20 <@AaronSw> http://googlesystem.blogspot.com/2007/11/gmail-api-for-greasemonkey.html
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15:21 <@AaronSw> I want to qualify Kragen's praise of Gmail -- Google controls the API in such a way that their particular interface style is fairly tightly coupled to the server
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15:22 < luisv> agreed
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15:31 -!- e_s_p [n=evan@pdpc/supporter/silver/evanpro] has joined #netservices
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15:31 < e_s_p> Hello all!
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15:31  * e_s_p is Evan Prodromou.
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15:32 < henrypool1> did anyone wish rms happy birthday?
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15:34 < henrypool1> can someone add ebay to our list of services?
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15:40 < vasile> Would you speak up?
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15:44 < bkuhn> vasile: was that directed at me or Kragen?
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15:44 < luisv> mako: FWIW, class="wikitable" per the mediawiki documentation doesn't seem to work
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15:44 < bkuhn> bcs: How do you mean it doesn't scale?
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15:45 < vasile> bkuhn: kragen
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15:45 < bkuhn> He's not net.connected.
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15:45 < bcs> bkuhn: It's impractical to save all the comments on your journal by doing File->Save on every post.
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15:45 < vasile> ah, ok
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15:46 < luisv> feck, I hate wiki syntaxes
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15:47 < e_s_p> luisv: I'll check on the wikitable thing
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15:47 < bkuhn> bcs: No, that was my point.  I have a script that does a full XML pull of everything.
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15:47 < e_s_p> I think you have to have a particular bit flipped somewhere
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15:48 < bkuhn> So, I don't need to do file save, I have a script that can mirror even large ones in the matter of 20 minutes or so.
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15:48 < luisv> e_s_p: I was trying to use it here: http://wiki.mako.cc/Network_services/Reference_services
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15:48 < e_s_p> I assumed so
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15:48 < bcs> bkuhn: Yeah, I know, but someone in here suggested File->Save as an alternative too.
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15:48 < bcs> Maybe half-joking.
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15:49 < bkuhn> oh! ;)
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15:49 < bkuhn> But that of course goes to the heart of the technology have/have-not issue.
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15:49 < bcs> Yeah.
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15:52 < vasile> The tech have/have-not divide *might* be beyond the scope of our inquiry in that it is a given.
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15:55 < bkuhn> Not sure.  This goes to our earlier point about considering whether it was the intent of the service provider is to use the technology "have-not-ness" to lock people in and control them, or if it's a mere availability issue.
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15:58 < luisv> s/might/must/
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15:58 < luisv> unless we want to (1) admit we have no hope of actually accomplishing anything or (2) we all cancel our flights home
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15:58 < luisv> and stay here
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16:00 < vasile> I don't mean to say we should consider solving the problem.  I'm  angling toward questioning the degree to which we consider technology deprivation in our analysis.
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16:01 < bkuhn> I think it has to be somewhat in our analysis.  If only someone who understands the API deeply and has studied can move their data off, maybe the service isn't effectively Free.
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16:02 < vasile> I call what he is descirbing the tyranny of freedom.
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16:04  * e_s_p is glad he didn't buy a ticket to Boston. B-)
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16:04 < e_s_p> luisv: "wikitable" is only available on Wikipedia.
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16:04 < e_s_p> For complicated reasons.
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16:05 < e_s_p> Mako could add it to his wiki by editing MediaWiki:Common.css
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16:05 < e_s_p> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MediaWiki:Common.css <-- viz. q.v. ipso fatso
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16:11 < e_s_p> Well
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16:11 < e_s_p> The meeting seems to be going well so far
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16:11 < luisv> yeah
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16:11 < e_s_p> Such a huge subject, it's surprising we haven't drifted too far yet
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16:11 < luisv> though we haven't moved very far :)
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16:13 < bkuhn> I think an important action item we should consider is to publish a series of position papers that take some of these examples and just raise the questions of concern re: freedom in a concise ways.  Something like from a committee endorsed by FSF would have a lot of weight and get interest in thinking about these issues.
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16:14 < e_s_p> That's a lot of work
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16:14 < e_s_p> Also, it seems only fair to measure them against a relatively objective metric, like a Free Services Definition
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16:14 < bkuhn> Indeed, no question.  But I am not sure what other actions we might take to impact that issue that aren't a lot of work.
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16:14 < e_s_p> bkuhn: agreed on that
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16:15 < e_s_p> One problem I'd like to address is time.
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16:15 -!- AaronSw_ [n=AaronSw@c-76-102-175-43.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #netservices
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16:15 < e_s_p> Can a service that made X or Y mistake ever be called "Free" in the future?
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16:16 < e_s_p> For example, a service that leaked private data, intentionally or not.
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16:16 < e_s_p> (If that becomes part of our definition, if we decide to make a definition.)
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16:16 < bkuhn> Back to your earlier point, I am not complete convinced that the first thing to do is to latch onto a definition of free/non-freedom.
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16:16 < bkuhn> As I argued earlier in the call, the Free Software world didn't have its first "definition" for nearly 10 years from its inception.
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16:17 < e_s_p> Fair enough
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16:17 < e_s_p> At that point, there was a lot of available software
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16:17 < e_s_p> That could reasonably be called "Free"
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16:17 < bkuhn> We may not known enough as a community yet to begin defining; we may just want to raise issues of concern and have various axises to consider things on.
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16:17 < e_s_p> And part of the value of a definition was drawing a line between the packages available
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16:18 < e_s_p> So, I think the big value of having a definition is as a carrot for service implementers today
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16:18 < e_s_p> I realize that's not necessarily a goal of this group
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16:19 < bkuhn> Right, exactly.  I think we don't even know yet the answer to the question of whether or not any web service is actually Free.  We do know some things that look non-Free, and some things that raise concerns.  I think identifying those in a more fuzzy way (but formally published with the weight of an endorsed committee) is a good first step.
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16:19 < e_s_p> I could get behind that
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16:19 < bkuhn> I think it's not clear what the goal of the group is yet; I would guess that about half want to make a definition first. ;)
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16:19 < e_s_p> I could also get behind endorsing something like the very simple OSD as a first step.
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16:20 < e_s_p> I think the goal is "get people smart about Freedom and services talking together"
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16:20 < e_s_p> Crud
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16:21 < e_s_p> Ekiga no longer wants to forward my voice to the meeting
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16:22 < vasile> I think a free services definition is a lot harder and less useful than it seems the rest of you do.
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16:22 < bkuhn> I'm with you vasile, I don't think it is useful at all.
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16:22 < vasile> I'd like to discuss it at some point, if only to just note the view.
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16:22 < e_s_p> vasile: if you insist on a *good* one, sure
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16:22 < e_s_p> B-)
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16:22 < vasile> Good is hard, of course.
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16:23 < e_s_p> I think the OSD is an OK first step
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16:23 < bkuhn> I see e_s_p's point of getting new web services to aspire to something.  But, publishing critiques of existing services can help us get there.
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16:23 <@mako> yesk, i agree
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16:24 < bkuhn> My worry about a definition is that the issues are so complex that any definition will be somewhat wrong.
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16:24 < e_s_p> neat
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16:24 <@mako> we're starting again
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16:24 < vasile> Different web services are going to respect these values to different
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16:24 < vasile> degrees and in different combinations.  It's hard to evaluate all
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16:24 < vasile> these values at once and come up with one value for on a freedom
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16:24 < vasile> scale.  Evaluating a service on 6 or more different freedom value
 +
16:24 < vasile> scales, and comparing those combined values against a freedom standard
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16:24 < vasile> will inevitably involve comparing apples to oranges (how much privacy
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16:24 < e_s_p> bkuhn: but you could say the same about Free Software or Free Cultural Works
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16:24 < vasile> protection = how much mobility protection?).  Because freedom isn't
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16:24 < vasile> binary, and because it is evaluated across many axes, a freedom
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16:24 < vasile> definition that enables us to identify free and non-free things is
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16:25 < vasile> inherently problematic.
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16:25 < henrypool1> great.
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16:25 < bkuhn> I am here
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16:25 < bkuhn> but can't jump to a mic quickly. :)
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16:25 < luisv> (why have I not heard of civicactions.com before?)
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16:25 < bcs> luisv: Ask Henri.  :)
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16:26 < luisv> gah, my network cable keeps falling out
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16:27 < bcs> luisv: We have another one over here if you want it.
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16:28 < luisv> thanks
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16:30 < bkuhn> By the time I got my mic working again, we had moved on.  I added cryptographic because, for some services, if it isn't offered, there are serious security/privacy concerns (such as online backup services)
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16:30 -!- AaronSw [n=AaronSw@c-76-102-175-43.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)
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16:31 < bkuhn> ... But I actually agree with mako that I'm not sure privacy/security belong on the list at all.
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16:31 -!- e_s_p [n=evan@pdpc/supporter/silver/evanpro] has left #netservices []
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16:33 < bkuhn> lol (no mic on)
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16:35 < bkuhn> I am not clear reliability matters if you have everything else.  Reliability only matters to the extent to which it impacts the other axises.
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16:37 < vasile> Reliability matters, but doesn't strike me as a freedom issue.
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16:37 < vasile> And, bkuhn is right that if reliability isn't present but other things are, market effects apply.
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16:38 < bkuhn> yes, by "matter" I meant "matters as a freedom issue".  It's a kitten. ;0
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16:39  * vasile once required people attending one of his events to sign a liability waiver that included as a final clause "God hates kittens"
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16:40 < vasile> Privacy might be like reliability in that if transparency and the other values are there, privacy gets handled by market forces to the extent people value it.
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16:41 < bkuhn> Yeah, probably
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16:42 -!- e_s_p [n=evan@pdpc/supporter/silver/evanpro] has joined #netservices
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16:42  * e_s_p disconnected and forgot the name of the channel.
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16:58 < bkuhn> eek, gobby stopped moving. :)
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16:58 < gabaug> sorry vasile, didn't even read your whole paragraph before commenting :-/
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16:58 < vasile> No worries.
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16:58 < bkuhn> there we go, damn GUIs@!
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16:59 < bkuhn> vasile: take it. ;)
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17:00 < e_s_p> I count 4 communication channels open right now for this group
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17:01 < e_s_p> I might be maxing out on my attention-switching capacity
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17:01 < vasile> 4?  Are you folks talking behind my back?
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17:01 < gabaug> heh
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17:02 < bkuhn> We don't really need the IRC channel given the gobby chat; I'm only favoring IRC because it actually has a working emacs client. ;)
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17:02 < vasile> gobby irc is pretty bad.
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17:02 < gabaug> vasile: actually....you call values "means to the ends", but then you call "privacy/..." ends - when they are values...so...I think your usage are not consistent?
 +
17:03 < vasile> Like I said, it's just words.  The point is there's a distinction.  I don't think we're at the point of characterizing the distinction.
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17:11 < luisv> I've created a new 'Notes on Web Sites' document
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17:11 < bkuhn> I agree with vasile.  My strong argument that AGPL shouldn't get ignored isn't designed to say it should "just be improved to solve anything".  I think it's merely a key tool in a larger system to solve the problem.
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17:11 < luisv> (FWIW)
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17:12 < vasile> Agreed.  One of the AGPL's strengths is that it focuses on a problem and does a lot to solve it.  We face a range of problems, so no one piece of the solution is going to address everything.
 +
17:12 < bkuhn> In other words, I do think we can't solve this problem with AGPL, but I agree we can't solve it with only the AGPL or some better version of it.
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17:12 < bkuhn> er, I had bad negatives in that last utterance:
 +
17:13 < vasile> Yeah, I can't parse it.
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17:13 < bkuhn> rewriting now...
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17:13 < bkuhn> In other words, I think we cannot solve the larger, complete problem with*out* the AGPL, but I also agree we can't merely improve the AGPL to solve all the other problems.
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17:14 < vasile> I agree.
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17:15 -!- henrypool1 [n=henrypoo@terminus-est.gnu.org] has left #netservices []
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17:15  * mako nods to bkuhn
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17:16 < vasile> mako: this irc log should probably get tossed in the wiki and locked against editing.
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17:16 <@mako> vasile: i have a log
 +
17:16 <@mako> vasile: i'll do that
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17:20 < AaronSw_> http://www.idcommons.net/
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17:20 < luisv> http://wiki.idcommons.net/index.php/Identity_Rights_Agreements
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17:25 < bkuhn> The 4th is the wiki, I think
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17:25 < vasile> Gobby, voice, 2 irc channels
 +
17:26 < luisv> oh, irc + pseudo-gobby-irc
 +
17:26 < luisv> 0.1!
 +
17:33 < luisv> so who is volunteering to be stallman and maintain web-emacs for 20 years?
 +
17:34 < luisv> (he is obviously right about writing code as a critical way of moving forward, despite my mocking tone)
 +
17:37 < bkuhn> I am somewhat concerned I sent us down this road, because doing software projects take such time and have a high probability of failure and may not get attention to this issue.
 +
17:38 < bkuhn> I actually thinking that publishing a series of papers analyzing existing web services and our concerns about them might be a better first step.
 +
17:38 < vasile> "A Survey of Freedom in Network Services"
 +
17:39 < bkuhn> yeah
 +
17:39 < bkuhn> Actually, Kragen's partly wrong -- GNU Manifesto, as published the very first time in October 1984 (I think, might be off by a year), announced that RMS was starting emacs "over Thanksgiving".
 +
17:40 < bkuhn> s/starting emacs/starting the GNU version of Emacs/
 +
17:43 <@mako> bkuhn: i'd like to come back to your suggestions
 +
17:43 <@mako> bkuhn: includin the committee and papers
 +
17:43 < bkuhn> ok
 +
17:43 < bkuhn> vasile: I see, maybe we should have a section just on that, I'll do it.
 +
17:44 < bkuhn> Done
 +
17:44 < AaronSw_> I think a free software Gmail clone would be very important
 +
17:44 -!- AaronSw_ is now known as AaronSw
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17:47 < gabaug> Instead of the FSF creating a new network service, I've made a note suggesting we work with existing services
 +
17:47 < luisv> AaronSw: yeah, flickr or gmail would be huuuuge.
 +
17:47 < gabaug> and with projects they use
 +
17:47 < gabaug> to make them more free-service friendly
 +
17:48 < luisv> gabaug: that wouldn't hurt, but I think to build credibility fsf also has to do one itself
 +
17:49 < gabaug> luisv: maybe...working closely with existing extremely popular projects could earn the FSF that credibility
 +
17:50 < luisv> mlinksva_: very good point
 +
17:52 < e_s_p> Nicely said, Aaron!
 +
17:52 < e_s_p> AaronSw: nicely said
 +
17:52 < AaronSw> thanks
 +
17:53 < e_s_p> I'll stop congratulating you now
 +
17:53 < e_s_p> OK, one more time
 +
17:53 < e_s_p> Well said!
 +
17:53 < e_s_p> B-)
 +
17:54 < luisv> someone who actually uses the web should probably take the lead on this, sadly
 +
17:54 < AaronSw> hehe
 +
17:56 < bkuhn> luisv: I agree with you, but RMS sees the worries here, and I can imagine him endorsing this committee as  officially appointed by FSF to operate on this issue.
 +
17:57 < luisv> bkuhn: yeah
 +
17:57 < luisv> my worry is that committees don't write good manifestos ;)
 +
17:57 < bkuhn> I agree he can't effectively work on the issue day in and day out since he's not really a hard core services user, but I know he wants this issue addressed.
 +
17:57 < bkuhn> That's a good point.
 +
18:01 < luisv> absolutely great group
 +
18:02 < luisv> http://www.fsf.org/news/FreedomForWebServices <- I had no idea this was announced, I thought it was completely private
 +
18:05 < AaronSw> the facebook thing would be a good revealing errors post
 +
18:06 < luisv> +1
 +
18:07 < luisv> actually
 +
18:07 < luisv> what I want
 +
18:07 < luisv> is a Free delicious clone ;)
 +
18:07 < luisv> (if we use it for this project, the more the better ;)
 +
18:07 < bcs> Wasn't there one that got announced on slashdot?
 +
18:07 < mlinksva_> scuttle?
 +
18:07 < luisv> yeah
 +
18:07 < luisv> but development has stopped
 +
18:08 < luisv> could be forked
 +
18:08 < bcs> I was afraid you would say something like that.
 +
18:08 < luisv> I hear that is a freedom
 +
18:08 < bcs> :)
 +
18:08 < mlinksva_> cc is using it for a project
 +
18:08 < mlinksva_> i haven't kept track but i imagine our fork is on sourceforge
 +
18:16 < bkuhn> lol
 +
18:16 < bkuhn> Thanks to Mako for organizing this and everyone for attending.
 +
18:16 -!- AaronSw [n=AaronSw@c-76-102-175-43.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit
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18:17 < e_s_p> Hey, this was great
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18:18 -!- bkuhn [n=bkuhn@sflc/staff/conservancy.president.bkuhn] has quit "Back online tomorrow morning US/Eastern."
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18:18 -!- gabaug [n=gabe@terminus-est.gnu.org] has quit "Leaving."
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18:18 <@mako> thanks everyone!
 +
18:19 < e_s_p> The awesome part is that now that everyone's signing off
 +
18:20 < e_s_p> I can completely re-write the Gobby document to reflect my own personal beliefs.
 +
18:20 < e_s_p> Mwahahahaha!
 +
18:20 < e_s_p> Actually, I gotta go too.
 +
18:20 < e_s_p> Thanks all!
 +
18:20 -!- e_s_p [n=evan@pdpc/supporter/silver/evanpro] has left #netservices []
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18:33 -!- luisv [n=louie@terminus-est.gnu.org] has quit Read error: 113 (No route to host)
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18:34 -!- vasile [n=vasile@terminus-est.gnu.org] has quit Read error: 113 (No route to host)
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18:35 -!- mlinksva_ [n=cc@terminus-est.gnu.org] has quit Read error: 113 (No route to host)
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18:43 -!- jwyg [n=jwyg@78.147.96.102] has quit "Leaving"
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19:18 -!- KragenSitaker [n=kragen@panacea.canonical.org] has joined #netservices
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19:18 < KragenSitaker> nobody left!
 +
19:18 < KragenSitaker> i mean, everybody left
 +
19:18 < KragenSitaker> nobody is left
 +
--- Day changed Mon Mar 17 2008
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00:51 -!- mlinksva_ [n=cc@c-76-118-182-126.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #netservices
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</pre>

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